Do you have permission to do that?
Clara Wilcox runs The Balance Collective, Specialising in Return to Work Coaching for Parents
This is a conversation that every Mum will resonate with, juggling home and work is not simply a balancing act but a superpower! Clara recognized through her own personal journey that the right support for Mum’s returning to work was only available from the employer’s point of view. This causes a biased approach and is not always helpful in an emotive decision-making process.
As pivotal moments go, Clara reflects on the conversation that triggered new thinking around her reality and how that was impacting on her mental health. Listen in to hear how Clara reshaped the life that led to her regaining control for herself and her family…
Clara runs The Balance Collective, providing return to work coaching for parents, and also offers confidence and self-esteem coaching services.
Making Conversations Count – Episode Thirteen
January 14th 2021
Wendy Harris & Clara Wilcox
00:01:53: The Balance Collective
00:02:38: Life transitions
00:07:55: Flexibility, the fourth industrial revolution
00:10:27: A new conversation
00:12:21: Remote working
00:14:54: DiSC Profile
00:16:20: Clara’s pivotal moment
00:19:34: “What Now?”, by Clara Wilcox
00:23:07: Give it to them straight
00:23:55: Uncomfortable conversations
00:26:32: The point of conversations
00:27:16: Final thoughts
Wendy Harris: Welcome to Making Conversations Count, the podcast where we invite business leaders to join us to share their pivotal moments. In their stories, we can help aspiring entrepreneurs with their own journeys. Today, I have got the very fantabulous, Clara Wilcox from the Balance Collective.
Clara Wilcox: Hello, thank you for having me.
Wendy Harris: It feels like absolutely ages since we’ve had a proper catch up. How have you been?
Clara Wilcox: All right, and actually I think all right is good enough right now, when you think about the change curve and all those types of things. I’m good, appreciating the small things in life, learning about what I can control and interestingly, being a lot more vulnerable about the fact that I’m not Teflon.
Wendy Harris: It’s a good lesson for us all to be enjoying the small things. Clara, where did we meet, if you can remember; it was quite a few years ago now.
Clara Wilcox: As you just reminded me, we actually met four years ago at a networking event, when I had not long sort of come out into the world as an entrepreneur, although my vivid memory of you was obviously after that meeting, because I don’t think we would have sort of been as in-depth conversation if we hadn’t already met before, was at another networking event; literally in a space of turning up to a group where the expectation is having permission to talk about who you are and what you do and having really good conversations.
As I say, I’m five years since I went 100% into self-employment this week, so you’ve pretty much been around the majority of my time in business, which actually makes me feel quite emotional saying it out loud.
Wendy Harris: It’s gone really quickly.
Clara Wilcox: Yes.
Wendy Harris: Because I remember quite clearly the early days of the Balance Collective. So, tell the listeners what is it you do now, because it’s changed dramatically. I’m so proud of you.
Clara Wilcox: Thank you. So I help parents create a career to enjoy, not endure. So, that is helping individuals, usually mums but not exclusively, re-profile who they want to be in their working life and looking at career confidence, work/life balance and bringing together everything; and that might be returning to work after parental leave, or a career break, or looking for the next career path.
I also work with organisations as well, so I work really closely with HR departments, people that have responsibility for staff wellbeing; and again, I’m part of the maternity package for a lot of organisations now. So, when their staff are coming back, I do one-to-one coaching, but I do a lot of workshops as well around resilience, wellbeing, work/life balance.
Wendy Harris: Transitioning back into being a grown up.
Clara Wilcox: I can’t promise that you’re a full grown-up even when you work with me; I can’t promise that. Interestingly, I was talking to a client earlier today about my concept of personal branding, so the work I’ve always done — so my background is recruitment and not-for-profit project management with employability skills and training. It’s always been about life transitions; that has been something that has always really fascinated me.
When you actually think about work, it’s such a massive part of what we do and who we are and how we show up in the world. It’s treated sort of equally as being the most important thing in the world and the least important thing at exactly the same time. I’ve always found it really interesting why people choose what they do, but getting people to understand the choices they have made around their values, around their personality profile, around what makes them happy basically.
I want people to be able to come home or shut their laptop at the moment at the end of the day and think, “I’ve had a really useful productive day”; because that’s how I’ve always felt about work, even when work’s been stressful and overwhelming. I’ve always felt like I’m doing the right thing and I belong. So, that’s what I want for the people that I work with.
Wendy Harris: Being valued as well, isn’t it?
Clara Wilcox: Yes, but also being valued by the things that you value as well. So quite often people will live their life success measures by the belief systems of other people, either be it family or cultural or organisation, but getting people just to feel a little bit more in control about what they do and how they spend their time and where they spend their energy.
Wendy Harris: Those conversations are going to dig quite deep, aren’t they, into mindset, into how they’ve been brought up, expectations.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah.
Wendy Harris: You know where I’m going with this.
Clara Wilcox: Yes.
Wendy Harris: So, being able to hold those conversations is like being able to hold somebody’s hand isn’t it; and say, “Look, whether you feel uncomfortable or not, it’s okay, because we can find a solution”.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah, interestingly, sort of the conversation that’s been quite career changing for me, was exactly that. It was a really uncomfortable conversation, a very vulnerable conversation that left me really, really exposed; but actually, I felt the power of conceding to what was going on, because somebody asked me the right question at the right time, which quite often is what coaching is.
There are a lot of people out there that sort of put a whole smoke and mirrors, but actually coaching is managing people through a supportive, reflective, non-judgmental conversation, at a point in their life when they’re willing and able to have it. My role tends to switch between coach and mentor and consultant, depending on exactly what I’m doing; but in respect of if I move into mentor or consultant, it’s always that underpinning coaching conversation.
Most people I know, know the answers to what they want to do, but they’re waiting for permission to do it.
Wendy Harris: Yeah, so true. Just wanting somebody to say — then affirmation as much as anything, isn’t it; that things are okay? Work through what that will look like once you’ve made one step; what’s the step after that and the step after that?
Clara Wilcox: Definitely, and it’s giving them permission to want different things, especially because, as I say, I work predominantly with parents. What we wanted in our twenties is different to our thirties and our forties because of the life experiences that we have, and I’m sure you can imagine some of the conversations I’m having at the moment with a lot of return to work and career coaching clients, because of what they’ve learned about themselves through what we’re going through locally, regionally and globally as well.
There’s so much guilt hung up against that. Perfect example is, “I’ve worked really hard. I’ve got my degree, I’ve got this qualification, I’ve got this level of responsibility at work and I just don’t want to put my energy into it anymore and I feel like I’m letting myself down”; because we’re told, especially as women, that you need to have it all, you need to do it all and how dare you choose what you want because you need to have an example.
Actually, one of the things that I do for myself personally and for my clients is actually simplicity is also a goal; growth doesn’t have to be a goal. Enhancement and developments doesn’t have to be a goal, it’s okay to want to roll things back, which again I think the current situation is making a lot of us have to do that and reprioritise.
Wendy Harris: 20 years ago, when I was heading up a department, we were looking for staff; it was an outbound call centre environment really. My idea at the time was, “Let’s get mums, working mums, that want to do the school run that perhaps can’t go back into their ordinary job role”. We had some people from legal, we had somebody who was a forklift driver; they were women that had got degrees or not, and it really didn’t matter, but the underpinning for them all was that they wanted to be there for their kids, but they still had bills to pay.
So, my approach to that was, “Look, ringing out, it’s not probably the job you want to do, but we can at least enjoy it and we can at least maybe earn a little bit of extra money”. We had the best time and we had such fun every day. We knew what was expected of us, we delivered on our targets, but the loyalty that we had was phenomenal because of what we were giving back. You can go to the Christmas play, you can have the six weeks off.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah, I think there is an issue somewhat, which I think we’re still picking up on however, is this assumption that to get that flexibility there has to be a drop in pay or there has to be a drop in capabilities. So that is very typical to, “Well, you want flexible working, you’re just going to have to take a pay cut”.
When actually, I think what we’ve shown now, out of the situation, is that you can be outcome focused, you can work flexibly, it’s not about being in work at a particular time. It’s about utilising your skills and your experience and your approach to deliver the work you want to do, because we’re an industrialised society. The fourth industrial revolution has been totally sped up because of what’s happened.
We have gone back to becoming a cottage industry where people are working at home because we have the technology to enable that to happen, but so many organisations are still stuck by like the factory settings with 9.00 am till 5.00 pm, everyone in the same place.
Wendy Harris: Yes, there needs to be more forward thinking from employers to be able to cater for staff and certainly from a female point of view, or what I wouldn’t want to see is historically where women have become disenchanted with what they’re doing. The only choice they have then is to go and get married and have children, so that they can effectively run away from that situation and put themselves in to something else.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah, I think there needs to be such a big conversation around gender roles, because again I find it really interesting when I talk to people about what I do. It was a client of mine actually and we were chatting about something. He went, “I’ve got to pull myself up on something”. I said, “What do you mean?” He went, “It didn’t even cross my mind you work with dads”. He’d realised his unconscious bias.
I work with parents, I don’t just work with mums and for people from a wellbeing perspective, stuff like flexible working has to stop being an operational childcare issue for mums, rather than a company culture. A lot of people have caring responsibilities; it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re parents.
A lot of us are getting to an age now where we’re like the sandwich generation where we have children and aging parents, but actually the children are quite capable of looking after themselves, it’s the elderly parents. Or we want to volunteer, or we have chronic health issues, which mean that you need to take yoga in the middle of the day to enable you to be able to sit down all day.
Whilst my niche is working with parents, because of how I want to develop and empower and enable people to feel like they don’t have to choose, there is a big issue around underemployment, especially when it comes to mums which, with respect, is exactly what you described, which is I’m a lawyer, but I’m having to do a call centre because I can’t get a flexible job in law.
Then you are left with this massive skill base, all this experience that is not getting used, but it has to be a really open conversation about how we’ve got the technology now to work flexibly, we’ve got the ability to be able to be output generative. Like me, for example, I was joking earlier; sometimes the school run for me is 15 minutes when I’m walking and that’s a long school run for me.
Before I went self-employed I couldn’t do the school run because my commute into work was 40 minutes each way, or what I had to do was adapt my working hours to take a pay cut to enable me to do the school run.
Wendy Harris: Or you have parents that have nurseries right on top of work so that they can come straight out and be accessible to then still have to make the child do the commute.
Clara Wilcox: Exactly. Then you have issues around what if you are ill, and the child — there are whole other things that go on there. The logistics are phenomenal.
A lot of organisations are shutting down centralised offices, places like Buffer have been totally remote for a long time, there are a lot of social enterprises that are totally remote. Now, we’re in a position where, by being open minded about where you work and when you work, it actually brings a lot of talent base to the employer.
So, rather than saying, “Right, I need to find someone that can get to the office in 30 minutes”, what they’re saying is we need somebody that can deliver this thing and actually as long as they deliver it between these hours because we’re on like Greenwich Mean Time, they can be anywhere in the world, because for the last eight months we’ve all been having to communicate on Zoom.
So, it enables employers to have a wider talent base, but also enables the parents who want flexibility, who don’t want to be underemployed, that want to be able to do everything they need to do for themselves and their families; it can make it happen. But like you say it starts with a conversation because a lot of people that I know will not even talk to their employer about flexible working, and flexible working doesn’t mean part-time; there is such a fallacy around that.
Wendy Harris: No, I think there has been a lot of employers, I know certainly there’s a client that I’ve been working with who has been pleasantly surprised that they’ve actually cut down on costs; they’re up on productivity; the staff in some respects are happier; still miss that social contact so they’re working a way around giving that social contact back to the team so that they feel like a team, even whilst they’re working independently. I applaud that because it is doable. I’ve been working remotely for 15 years.
Clara Wilcox: Exactly. When we’re able to leave the house quite comfortably, you can do co-working, you can have coffee meetings for organisations that want to have that feeling. You can have a team meeting once a week where everybody comes in theoretically, if they’re in there.
Wendy Harris: I want it called the water cooler chat.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah.
Wendy Harris: I want it in my diary as, let’s just talk about what you were watching on the TV.
Clara Wilcox: Exactly, so it’s all possible. So, that in very massive nutshell is basically what I do. It makes me laugh because my mum’s moving out — that doesn’t make me laugh that my mum’s moving out, but she’s found my old school reports and I was apparently a very unconfident unsure child, right up until like middle second school, “Clara is a worrier, she’s really anxious, she constantly needs reassurance”.
It’s interesting for me that I’ve come from a child that would constantly want to toe the line, which probably would have been classed as a sensitive anxious child if I was at school now, possibly seen as neurodivergent; but I’ve found something that really interests me and that’s just understanding why people do what they do, and I’ve niched it down into careers. So, actually my career has been based on me talking and having conversations because I couldn’t do —
Wendy Harris: Yes and channelling that passion.
Clara Wilcox: Exactly, I couldn’t do what I do if I didn’t have conversations. When I was in recruitment uncovering why people do what they do, not just taking it on surface level. The same with the consultancy when I was a recruiter, because, yeah give me a job spec, but that doesn’t mean anything. Obviously, it’s moved and evolved from quite a transaction to, “Why? Why have you started that business and why do you employ the people you employ, and why do you work with the clients? Why do you do that rather than this?”
Wendy Harris: That questioning behaviour though is what drills down to the right solution.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah, and it’s nice with the coaching because it’s the person who decides what the right solution is for them. Even if they want me to give them suggestions I say, “These are some options, but what are you going to do? How are you going to make it work?”
Wendy Harris: You have just reminded me of the very first DiSC profile I ever had done when I was in my very first job. We are now talking 30-odd years ago, so I bet these profiles have come on in abundance.
Clara Wilcox: They’re amazing. I have just reintroduced DiSC back into my business for clients.
Wendy Harris: Have you?
Clara Wilcox: I adore DiSC.
Wendy Harris: I just remember answering all these different questions, multiple choice. It took a couple of weeks to get the results because, of course, you didn’t enter it all into a computer or anything like that then. Right at the bottom of this report was the top 100 jobs that you would be best matched to do. You’ll understand why it stuck in my mind and I wish I’d got a copy of it, because number 1 was entrepreneur, number 97 was telesales manager, which was the job I was doing.
Clara Wilcox: Wow, says it all doesn’t it. I adore DiSC. So, what I used to do when I was in recruitment we used to hand score it, so people would fill it in, and then we tot it all up, draw the graph and read it off the graph. The reports that I do now, people get like a 17-page report but I do still do a lot of the graph reading. It’s just — I adore it. Again, it’s another conversation starter.
Wendy Harris: Starts some very interesting conversations about why did you answer that, then? What was the reasoning behind that? Interesting.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah, how did you feel about this?
Wendy Harris: So, Clara, I ask every guest on the show to think about a pivotal moment, because I do think that from our experiences, what those conversations are and what followed can be really enlightening for listeners. So, tell me, what have you got to share with us today?
Clara Wilcox: Okay, so possible slight trigger warning, obviously you know; my journey into motherhood included one was quite a late loss, and I remember being sat with the grief counsellor at the time, at the hospital. Whilst we were dealing with all of that on a personal level, on a professional level there was one of — I’ve lost count how many times it happened but a massive change going on; massive change process going on at the organisation that I was working at.
I remember sat there talking to her and saying, “If I lose my job, if I have to move into another department, they won’t know the Clara that was before this happened, they’d only know the Clara that is now, and I don’t know who this Clara is anymore and I don’t know how to get her back; and I’m worried I’m going to be like this for the rest of my life”.
Wendy Harris: This is because of the grief that you were going through.
Clara Wilcox: Just the volume of grief and at the time, I wasn’t diagnosed with depression. Not long after that I got the depression diagnosis. So there was like massive mental health challenges going on. Interesting for me, the pivotal aspect of that conversation wasn’t what she said back to me, it was just the fact I’d said it out loud.
So, I think quite often what happens is in life, that we live our life by other people’s expectations, we live our lives by the version of our life, either personal, professional or both that we thought we wanted, and we really resist the reality of how our life experiences totally change us. We seem to accept that if good things happen, it’s going to develop our life and enhance our life, but almost try to reject the negative things, “Oh no, I’m going to let that bounce off me and I’m going to be really strong and not let it happen”, which was how I was sort of living my life. I was trying to do all the normal coping mechanisms and they just weren’t working for me.
Actually, off the back off that came to conversations with close family members, in terms of saying, “I just don’t feel right. I don’t feel okay”, and then further conversation which led to conversation with the doctor, which led to going to see a counsellor, which led to total re-evaluation of my life and finding strength because I had to rebuild myself.
I had to stop trying to be the person I was before this traumatic experience happened and decide how that life experience was going to be a catalyst for creating a life that I could control a little bit. So, I decided what was priority for me now and focused a lot more on making sure that that was brought into my life and again that level of vulnerability and asking for help, which before that point was just not me.
Like I still struggle with it a little bit now but up until that point I would — default, “I’m fine. I’m fine”. “You okay?” “Yeah, I’m fine. Yeah, it’s all right, it’s hard but it’s fine”.
Wendy Harris: It’s all right being an independent woman to a point, isn’t it?
Clara Wilcox: Yes.
Wendy Harris: We ought to tell the listeners that your book, What’s Next?
Clara Wilcox: What Now?
Wendy Harris: What Now, sorry, yeah. What Now? You ought to do a What’s Next, then; that’s obviously a premonition.
Clara Wilcox: Yes, well joking aside that is a working title of a future book, but anyway carry on.
Wendy Harris: There you go.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah.
Wendy Harris: But I was fortunate enough to be one of the readers before that was published and it touched me on lots of levels. It made me see a different version of the Clara that I knew. It touched me from a personal experience that I’d never shared with anybody, that then encouraged me to share it. So, the way that you are describing that conversation with the grief counsellor is almost like seeing a thread and it really just bugging you.
Clara Wilcox: Yes.
Wendy Harris: Pulling on it and going —
Clara Wilcox: Yeah.
Wendy Harris: That thread’s sort of just got bigger and wider and gone off in different directions for you to have the conversations that you’ve needed at the time that you needed them.
Clara Wilcox: Definitely.
Wendy Harris: At your own pace.
Clara Wilcox: Yes, for me as well it was because of the conversations that I had with therapists and the doctor and family members; even people after reading the book were like, “We knew at the time you weren’t okay”. I was like, “Well, why didn’t you say anything?” “Well, we did but you said you were okay”. I was like, okay, well that’s a learning thing because okay is not a real thing; it’s just a throwaway comment that people have but it is this element of and I think I said in the book, I look back and I thought people didn’t notice, but they did, but I wasn’t listening.
Wendy Harris: There’s a certain amount of denial that it’s happening, because you do want it to be all okay because let’s face it, you were a working mum, have a husband who’s lovely, do you know what I mean?
Clara Wilcox: Yes.
Wendy Harris: We’re not just Clara; we are that wife, mother, friend, daughter, sister.
Clara Wilcox: Definitely.
Wendy Harris: The list goes on so in every situation that you were faced with where people could see that you were struggling you were just trying to put on the mask of whatever it was that you expected them to see.
Clara Wilcox: Definitely. It’s funny actually because I do remember at the time the office that I worked for we were at the end of a really long corridor. I’ve always had the vision that I’d get to the double doors and I’d go —
Wendy Harris: Da da.
Clara Wilcox: Obviously, it’s on a podcast so I was doing a big massive smile there, literally put the doors open to sort of act as if. On the flip side as well I think it also useful to know that sometimes you can force your way through a situation where it’s useful, where that coping mechanism is useful.
Wendy Harris: Defensive.
Clara Wilcox: Exactly.
Wendy Harris: You’re defending yourself, yes.
Clara Wilcox: So, there’s been times where in work, I’ve been asked to do something and I think, “Oh my goodness me, that’s terrifying”, but I just say, “Yes”, and find my way round it. So, I think this conversation was two things really. It allowed me to be vulnerable and realise the world didn’t fall apart and people just stepped up and wanted to help, but it also made me realise that I’m a lot more resilient than I possibly ever thought I was, because of what had happened up to that point and how far it had gone before it got too far, if that makes sense.
I think as well it was an element of, something happened to us which was awful, but with help and with time and with the physical passage of time, life’s pretty good again. But it’s changed my risk appetite. I can say this without a doubt; if we hadn’t gone through what we’d gone through, I would not be running my own business now.
Wendy Harris: I was just going to say that it’s on account of your experiences that have led you on the journey that you’ve had. The success that you have with your clients in terms of how they feel in turn is because they know you get it and they can trust that you get it. I know that you are very good wordsmith in conversation and you’re very intuitive and astute with people, but if they need to hear something straight, you’ll give it them.
Clara Wilcox: What I try to do now with my work is try to be the person that I needed then; somebody who was empathetic; who would have allowed me to work through this at the pace I needed to work through it; allow me to talk about things that were uncomfortable.
Actually off the back of this, my blog for this week is all about having uncomfortable conversations, rather than positive conversations. You have to be comfortable having uncomfortable conversations. Quite often the thing that we’re carrying around us, whatever that thing may be, holds more power when you’re silent with it.
Actually, when you put it out aloud and share it with the world, then all of a sudden you can pick it apart and you can analyse it, and you can have some logic behind it. And, you can either catastrophize it to make it — I was like, “If I lose my job, I’m never going to get another job, I don’t know who I am, no one’s going to want to employ me, I’m going to be an absolute mess”. And she was like, “Okay, well what’s the reality?” So then, the reality was, XYZ, redundancy, etc.
Wendy Harris: The reality if I don’t talk about it is that it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Clara Wilcox: Exactly. And, up until that point, I’d had micro-adjustments to be vulnerable. So, obviously work straightaway knew what was going on and I was very open about it. I think I mentioned it in a book when I was leaving my last job, I found the email that I sent to everyone which was, “I’m not okay, I won’t be okay for a while, but I’ll talk about this; I want to talk about this. You don’t have to talk about it with me, but if you want to, you can ask”.
So actually, this is where I struggled trying to find a conversation because actually, since the minute I found my voice as a teenager, my whole life has been based on having really uncomfortable, difficult conversations, and actually allowing other people to own that, I suppose.
Wendy Harris: Challenging the way of thinking is not a bad thing, because they’re probably questioning it themselves thinking, “Why am I doing this?” really, so it’s okay.
Clara Wilcox: Yeah. I was the one at sixth form that would always push back on the teachers and, as a parent, had the conversations with my eldest about their school policy, about rolling up their skirts, and we have an agreement, because she refuses to not roll up her skirt, and she knows what the school uniform policy is. But, she knows that if she gets pulled up on that, she’s got the right to ask the teacher what the issue is; and the only acceptable answer is, it goes against school policy. If it’s distracting, if it’s this, if it’s that, if it’s the other, that’s a problem.
So, I’ve built my life, actually on retrospect, like I say, on having quite challenging, uncomfortable conversations. Sometimes I don’t like the answers to them.
Wendy Harris: But, we can’t be happy all the time, can we; and we can’t be pleasing all the time?
Clara Wilcox: Yeah. I think the biggest lesson I learnt, from a personal development perspective, I remember I was doing one of the many leadership qualifications you get when you work at a university, and there’s a whole thing around conversations. And there was a really — it stuck with me so much, which is that quite often, we think the point of a conversation is making the other person agree with you, and it’s not. It’s about making sure you say what you want to say and they understand it. I was like, “Oh, that’s just amazing!” That’s how I try and live my life.
Wendy Harris: And I’m sure you do, and I know that your girls do too.
Clara Wilcox: Oh, yes!
Wendy Harris: That is something; that is your legacy right there.
Clara Wilcox: Yes, definitely.
Wendy Harris: Clara, I could talk to you for hours. We do usually, but unfortunately I do need to wrap it up today. I’m sure the listeners will have gotten an awful lot out of you sharing today. Thank you so much. If anybody wants to continue the conversation, of course they can buy your book and then now, they will have you in their head. They will literally be reading it and they will hear your voice, which was how I read it!
Clara Wilcox: Yeah, my Brummie dulcet tones!
Wendy Harris: But, if they want to pick up the conversation with you, if there’s something that has touched them and they want to reach out, where can they find you?
Clara Wilcox: Well, I’m all over social media; so, Clara Wilcox on LinkedIn; they have the Balance Collective website, which is www.thebalancecollective.co.uk, where I publish a weekly blog and a monthly personal development book review; and on Facebook as well. I think my handle now is Clara Wilcox BC, because we’ve done a recent change on that. And the book, What Now?, I can never remember the subtitle, but it’s like, Mental Health, Life After Miscarriage and Rebuilding.
Wendy Harris: It’s supporting Edward’s Trust, isn’t it; so, it’s for charity. I must, must say that it is all for the Edward’ Trust charity, which does a fabulous job, and I bet this year’s been tougher than ever for them.
Clara Wilcox: Yes.
Wendy Harris: So, Clara, thank you so much. To our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. Don’t forget, we do reply to all of your comments. Share and subscribe through your family and friends, www.makingconversationscount.studio/podcast. Thanks so much for listening; until next time.